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# Any Major Dudes: Episode 3 - Like a Cheerleader at a Craps Game
- URL: https://www.earwaxmag.com/any-major-dudes-episode-3-like-a-cheerleader-at-a-craps-game/
- Published: 2026-10-21T20:02:44.000Z
- Updated: 2026-10-21T20:02:44.000Z
- Author: EAR•WAX Magazine

Oliver and Jeff discuss Steely Dan's second album - Countdown to Ecstasy. Listen on Spotify, Apple Music, Pocket Cast, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 

# Transcript:  
  
EAR•WAX Magazine

Any Major Dude, Episode 3: “Like a Cheerleader at a Craps Game”

Steely Dan’s Countdown to Ecstasy · Episode transcript · Runtime 57:47

## **Speakers**

| Speaker          | Who / where they appear       |
| ---------------- | ----------------------------- |
| Oliver Morris    | Co-host, also called “Ollie.” |
| Jeff Van Dreason | Co-host.                      |

## **Contents**

00:00:00 Cold Open

00:01:12 Theme and Introductions

00:01:57 First Impressions of Countdown to Ecstasy

00:07:05 "Bodhisattva"

00:12:24 "Razor Boy"

00:15:34 "The Boston Rag"

00:21:49 "Your Gold Teeth"

00:28:17 Side B: "Show Biz Kids"

00:40:18 "My Old School"

00:46:08 "Pearl of the Quarter"

00:49:20 "King of the World"

00:53:24 Final Thoughts and Robert Christgau's Review

00:56:39 Sign-Off

# **\[00:00:00\] Cold Open**

*\[A brief musical sting.\]*

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** How does one count down to ecstasy? What number do you start with?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Well, I feel like it's one of those Zen things. I think you gotta start at, like, a thousand. Or you count up. Because that's the thing: when you're under anesthesia or all those sorts of things, they tell you to count up, 'cause you rarely make it to, like, 10.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Do they? Anyone told me to count down?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Oh, do they get you to count down? I remember I was asked to count up when I was under the — under the knife. Is it worth it?

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, no. I mean, I've only had it a couple of times, and they're always like, "Count backwards from 10."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I guess 10 must be the number, then.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, 10 is the number.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Then again, like all good \[unclear\], we only get eight songs. So maybe it's like eight.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Right? Although, to be fair, I would get to eight and then I would pass out. It would not take me long. It would be like, "10, 9—" So yeah, that's probably what it is.

# **\[00:01:12\] Theme and Introductions**

*\[The Any Major Dude theme song plays (lyrics not transcribed).\]*

**OLIVER MORRIS:** You're listening to Any Major Dudes. I am a major dude, Oliver Morris.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** And I'm another major dude, Jeff Van Dreason.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** And today we're going to be talking about Countdown to Ecstasy, which — oh my God, I am very excited.

# **\[00:01:57\] First Impressions of Countdown to Ecstasy**

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Me too. Can I tell you a little bit about my background with this one before we jump into that?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yes, please do.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** So this is one of the later ones that I listened to, which is strange, because it's their second album. And I think what put me off is the cover. I have strong feelings about Steely Dan and their album covers, 'cause most of them are pretty bad.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's really bad.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** And it's one of their girlfriends.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's Donald Fagen's girlfriend, the one who did the design. And it sort of caught the attention of the ABC bosses, because there were only three figures on it. And it's like, "Well, there's five members of the band. How come there's only three figures on the thing?" And at least according to Wiki here, the proofs for the album cover were later stolen by Becker and Fagen during a dispute over the final layout.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I love that, too. So at some point, they were like, "Look, here's the album cover." And the bosses were like, "No, this isn't the album cover. Let's do three more proofs of it." And then they were like, "All right, well, what if we steal the proofs, and now there's no album cover, and fuck you?" And I guess they went with the first one. In my mind, it's a full-on heist with Fagen. It's a full-on heist. And while they're doing the heist, "Show Biz Kids" is playing, because to me that has a heist-song kind of flair to it. But we'll get to that later. So that's incredible. I really like that they broke into ABC, like, "We gotta get the proofs." That's wonderful.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** But no — so I had heard a lot about their other records: Can't Buy a Thrill, Pretzel Logic, Aja, even Gaucho. I don't mean to be like "even Gaucho" — I have something else to say about Gaucho in a second. I had heard about all of them more than I'd heard about Countdown to Ecstasy, so I kind of got to it a little late. And I was really surprised by it once I finally listened to it, because it's a little bit of an outlier, I think, in their discography.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** And the other thing I was going to say — this is going to be more relevant later as we continue the series — I have not dived into Gaucho yet, because I'm saving it. It's the one that I haven't listened to front to back. I've heard some of the singles and some of the songs, obviously, but —

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I'm waiting \[to hear what you\] say about Gaucho.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait. So I just wanted to tease that out, because I think for some people it's their favorite record. So it's like a little dessert. It's a little treat for later. I also am not familiar with their reunion albums that much, other than Alive in America —

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Everything Must Go.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, yeah. And I've heard they're very good, too.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah. Well, this is interesting, because Countdown to Ecstasy is an album that I had not heard front to back.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Before this?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Before this, yeah.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Oh, really?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** So this is my first. Don't get me wrong, I love "Show Biz Kids," I love "My Old School," I love "Bodhisattva," 'cause it was one of the ones my dad got into for a little while. But no, I'd never heard it front to back before. And one of the things I really love about it is that it's Steely Dan \[unclear\]. I think there's a lot of jazz in this one. Where Can't Buy a Thrill is very, very poppy, very rocky, Countdown to Ecstasy has some jazz licks in here.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** There are. But it also feels a touch more rock-driven, and even a little less produced. There's a little bit less machine. There's a bit of an edge. "Show Biz Kids" doesn't really sound like a Steely Dan song — it definitely does and doesn't at the same time, if that makes any sense. And it sounds a little chaotic. The stuff at the end, when there's screaming happening and harmonica and noises, it's like, "What? You allowed this in this band? On this album?" I really enjoyed it, re-listening to it. And the other thing that's interesting is that it's kind of the opposite of front-loaded. It's back-loaded.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Side B is so much better than side A.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, it really is. I mean, side A has some weak, weak songs, the weakest being "The Boston Rag," which — I don't know what to make of that song.

# **\[00:07:05\] "Bodhisattva"**

**OLIVER MORRIS:** So should we start with "Bodhisattva"?

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yes.

*\[A clip of "Bodhisattva" plays (lyrics not transcribed).\]*

**OLIVER MORRIS:** A bodhisattva is a sort of enlightened being who stays on Earth to enlighten others.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Which sounds like a really good way to be a charlatan.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yes. And in terms of the lyrics of this song, there's not a lot to go off. It's, you know, "Bodhisattva, would you take me by the hand?" "I'm gonna sell my house in town." It's about giving up your worldly possessions.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Not giving up, though. Selling, which is a key difference.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** "I'm going to keep the money." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gonna sell the worldly possessions, but keep the fiscal ones. And also, "the shine of your Japan and the sparkle of your China" is probably the most interesting lyric in the whole thing. I was looking at this on Genius —

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, there's some wordplay happening there.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah. So "Japan black" is the black lacquer that was used prominently in the US during the early 20th century in the fabrication of products that were meant to be associated with Japan. So if you had, you know, a Japanese tea set or something like this, it would be in Japan black. And then "the sparkle of your China": China the country, but also china the, like, silverware type of \[unclear\].

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, exactly.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** So it is this sort of tongue-in-cheek, you know, revelatory: "I am giving away my worldly possessions. I'm giving myself over to the Bodhisattva." Can't help talking about selling things and material goods and the finer things in life while I do it, though.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Right, right. So how committed am I to this, really?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Right. "In my countdown to ecstasy." Yeah, I'm giving away all my stuff, but I'm still thinking about my stuff.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** And it sort of takes the piss, I think, out of — I think this Buddhism idea, and sort of the West-meets-East flirtations with Eastern religion and philosophy, was very popular in the '70s. And it's them kind of being like, "Yeah, you go ahead and do that. But really, deep down, we all know you're not committed to this. Let's be real," right?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah. But in terms of the song, it is hectic. It is crazy. It's one of my favourite starters of a Steely Dan album. One of the things I love about it is that it tricks you into thinking it's gonna be a classic blues — it goes "boom-ba-bom" — but then it goes "bump it up, bump it up, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom," and goes on this slightly bebop-like chord progression. And then you've got Jeff "Skunk" Baxter playing along to it. He starts off with this ripping blues solo and then goes into this bebop solo afterwards. And it's sort of a \[template\] for the rest of the album, which is, you know, rock and jazz.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, it does feel a little bit like they're flirting with very poppy jazz fusion. Jazz was kind of embracing electric sounds and psychedelic sounds by this time, and exploring funk and stuff like that. And it sounds like they're maybe slightly influenced by some of that, with some of the chord changes and progressions — especially in this one, especially the instrumental breakdowns.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Well, this same year — I think later than this album, but this same year — we'd get Head Hunters by Herbie Hancock.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** My favorite Herbie album, and one of my favorite albums ever. It's just the best. Yeah. I might — I might prefer the follow-up, and I really think about it because of its cover, 'cause it has Herbie piloting a spacecraft in an alien atmosphere by playing keyboards in the ship. Thrust. Yes, Thrust. Thrust and Head Hunters are tied for me, but Thrust might just edge it out. It's a real close competition. It's super close. Anyway —

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Oh, that's where "Butterfly" is. Yeah.

# **\[00:12:24\] "Razor Boy"**

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Step two in your countdown to ecstasy is, as far as I can tell, "Razor Boy."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah. This just feels so edgy — with a capital E or a lowercase E, depending on how edgy you're feeling. I get confused about what's happening in this song sometimes. What are your thoughts about what's happening here?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** On "Razor Boy"? I have no idea.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Okay, I'm glad I'm not the only one, 'cause this one mystifies me a touch. "Will you still have a song to sing when the razor boy comes and takes your fancy things away?" In a way, it's a really perfect follow-up to "Bodhisattva," because it's again talking about your stuff going away. But I can't figure out — "I guess only women in cages can play down the things they lose." Like, what are you talking about?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It just feels kind of grody. Yeah. I think that's the thing I have about this song: it just feels grody.

*\[A clip of "Razor Boy" plays (lyrics not transcribed).\]*

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** It's definitely another one of those \[unclear\] songs, where it's just like —

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah. "How dare you?" It's another "Reelin' in the Years," but without the charm.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** And without the musicianship, either. I mean, it sounds good, but it doesn't have that killer guitar solo. It doesn't have anything. It just sort of is. I don't know. It's not my favorite.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Definitely not. Yeah, it's just much of a muchness, I would argue.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Absolutely.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's kind of got this slightly Latin rhythm, I guess. But it just doesn't do anything for me. Having said that, I do — the choruses, unfortunately — and it's something I think we'll find in later Steely Dan songs — the choruses are annoyingly catchy.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** It is.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah, I haven't got much to say about this one.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** It's mystifying to me. Yeah, it's a solid track, too. But on the weaker side of the album, I think, right? I dunno.

# **\[00:15:34\] "The Boston Rag"**

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Although it's followed up with "The Boston Rag," which I think is very catchy. Again, a very catchy chorus. Kind of similar in a way, maybe, in that I don't know what the hell it's about. I think it's about people talking about the good old days, and how hard it was — or how hard it is now compared to back then. What the hell? What's with Boston? Because all these references, like Seventh Avenue: "That's why I pointed my car down Seventh Avenue." I know a thing or two about Boston. There's not a single reference to Boston in the song other than "Boston Rag." And I don't think it's a newspaper. I think it's like "rag," like the good old gang. Like, we used to maybe go to Harvard together or something like that, and now I guess they live in New York, and they kind of wish they were back in college, where they could party and not have so many responsibilities. I don't know.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I think it's got something to do with Lonnie.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, but who the hell is Lonnie?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Lonnie, apparently, is Lonnie Young \[spelling?\], who was the leader of the boho scene at Bard College.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Okay.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** They're still talking about university. They haven't gotten over uni yet. They've still got a couple more songs in them about Bard College.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** But Bard College is in New York. It's not in Massachusetts, even. We're talking about a different state, right?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I'm wondering if Lonnie is — I wonder if Lonnie's from Boston.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Maybe. Yeah, maybe.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** So when Lonnie comes alive — "Bring back the Boston Rag" — I think that's a reference to the Boston Globe, perhaps. Maybe. "I tell you, buddy, it ain't no drag."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** But why are you bringing it back? It never went anywhere. That's the thing I can't understand. And also, "Lady Bayside" — there's no Bayside. Unless it's another Bard reference.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Well, the Bayside neighborhood is in Queens.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Queens. So there's all these references to New York City, and that's the thing that's so confusing to me. I don't get this.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I think that's what the song's about. I think it's about Lonnie being a fish out of water. I think he's a Bostonite who's found himself in New York City and kind of can't —

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah.

*\[A clip of "The Boston Rag" plays (lyrics not transcribed).\]*

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I was just in New York City this past weekend.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Oh, gosh.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah. So I grew up in upstate New York, and New York City has always been sort of a blooming pilgrimage that we upstate New Yorkers make, and then curse them for taking all our tax money or whatever. I didn't really do that, but a lot of people do. But it's always been a confounding city, simply because of its size. And now that I live in a very small city, it's easier for me to go and visit and navigate around, because I'm used to city living in general. But visiting New York is always a bit overwhelming, because you don't visit New York City; you visit a part of New York City, right? If you really want to go around to different boroughs, you can, but you're going to spend most of your time doing that, because it's so large and it's so difficult, even with the good subway system, to get anywhere. So yeah. Anyway.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I remember when I went to New York — I was a fool. I was an absolute fool. I wanted to go to this Chelsea guitar shop, the Chelsea Street Guitar Shop, which is where the Chelsea Street Hotel is, where — oh, what's his name? The "Hallelujah" guy?

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Leonard Cohen.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Lost it. Leonard Cohen. Yeah. So Leonard Cohen wrote "Hallelujah" in the Chelsea Street Hotel.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Sure.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** And I was like, "Oh, this guitar shop \[unclear\]." I wanted to be in New York and buy some guitar memorabilia. That was my plan when my family went there. Me and my dad decided to go on this pilgrimage to Chelsea Street. Took us all day. And we're like, "All right, then we're gonna meet up on Fifth." Fifth Avenue's the biggest street in New York. It'll be easy when you're there. "We'll see you on Fifth." And you're like, "Where on Fifth are they?" "Oh, they're at Fifth and Broadway. Yeah, just keep walking."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** And look out. Keep your head on a swivel.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah. Forty-minute walk. Forty-minute walk from Chelsea Street and Fifth to Broadway and Fifth. And it's like, okay.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** And the thing is, if you look at a map, you'd be like, "Oh, that doesn't look that far." And then you realize the scope and the size of everything, and you're like, "Oh, that would take me a day." But yeah, it's overwhelming. It's large.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah. And then we went to the Port Authority, and it's like, why are we doing this? I don't understand.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Why did you do that?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I don't know. I don't know why we found ourselves near the Port Authority. It was a weird day.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** You know? "Bring back the Boston Rag," I guess. I don't know.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah, bring back the Boston Rag. It ain't so bad. It ain't so bad.

# **\[00:21:49\] "Your Gold Teeth"**

**OLIVER MORRIS:** And then we've got "Your Gold Teeth." I was listening to "Your Gold Teeth," and I despise everything about it except the solos, 'cause this is where it gets super fucking jazzy. It's got all the chord sequences and everything in the first two minutes, and then for the last four minutes of the song, it just has these vamping chords.

*\[A clip of "Your Gold Teeth" plays: an extended electric piano and guitar vamp.\]*

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's just playing, like, the C minor or something over and over again. And it's like, "Okay, Fagen, go nuts on the electric piano. Jeff 'Skunk' Baxter, go nuts on your guitar solo." They both take solid two-minute solos before they get back to the main song, which is about gambling or something —

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Or whatever. Yeah. Something like that.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's the second-best song about gambling on the album.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Oh, yeah, I guess that's true. There's a lot of gambling here. What's up with that? The musicianship on this album — I especially really like the guitar work from Jeff "Skunk" Baxter.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** He's very handy in this one.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yes. And also the slide guitar work from Rick Derringer in "Show Biz Kids" is just legendary to me. I could listen to that song over and over again and think about the specific slide guitar notes that he's hitting, punctuating a lot of the lyrics, almost like a counter to some of Fagen's lyrics. So why do you despise this one?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I just — the lyrics —

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I don't know.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's another sort of misogynist one, I think. It's just unfortunate. They wrote most of their songs during the seventies, where women weren't quite people yet, according to a bunch of men.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Right.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** And so it's this kind of, "Let's just talk about this gambler," which is like, "You'd sell your last two gold teeth if you had them." But I forgive it all of that, because I really love the solos. I really, really love the solos.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I mean, this speaks to my complicated relationship with Steely Dan in general, right? There's a lot of ugliness you have to wade through to enjoy the prettiness of the musicianship and the production. And I think that's part of it. That's part of the appeal, once you get through that layer. And sometimes I'm not even sure how sincere it is, because insincerity is everywhere with this band, right? But the insincerity can also be mean. It can also be cruel to the characters in the songs. And so you kind of have to take the good and the bad and package it all together. But there's definitely songs in the repertoire that leave a bad taste in your mouth, and this one's not as bad to me as, like, "Razor Boy." But I definitely see where you're coming from. It's not nice. It's just kind of ugly.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I think there's also a bit in this which has the, "Let's see how they roll. See how they roll," which reminds me of a song that's way, way later in their repertoire, but I can't remember what it's called anymore.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** It might be "Your Gold Teeth II."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Oh, right. Yeah, because that's that song, right? Three albums away.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah. Right.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** So we'll get to it eventually.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Interesting that they made song sequels.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I know some bands — I think they only did it once.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah. But why that one? It's kind of a weird callback, out of all their songs. They're like, "Oh, we need to make a sequel to 'Your Gold Teeth.'" Okay.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Oh, my — what's the song? "I remember that look in your eye."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Oh, "Green Earrings."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** "Green Earrings." It reminds me of "Green Earrings."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I can see that. I can see that.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Just because of that "I remember that look in your eye." There's just something about that out-of-key, out-of-context "See how they roll" that is really addictive. But for me, it's the fact that they get into the solo so hard that by the time Jeff "Skunk" Baxter comes in with his solo, he's not even playing notes in the same key signature. The chord is so established in your mind that he's like, "Right, where's all the incidental notes? Where's all the accidentals? How weird can I make this sound?" That's so jazz, and so great. And I like that it's that early jazz-funk feeling. It's that sort of playing around with, "Well, if you have a funky beat, how far can you go with a solo?" It's really, really cool. I like that about this one.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Absolutely.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** But good riddance to side A. Holy fuck.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Thank goodness we're through that.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Because now we can start talking about this fucking album.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Now we can get into the good shit.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Now we're counting down to ecstasy.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yes. Maybe it's just four. Maybe the number is four.

# **\[00:28:17\] Side B: "Show Biz Kids"**

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Before we start with "Show Biz Kids": do you know which song in the universe has the most swear words in it?

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I don't.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It is a song by Super Furry Animals called "The Man Don't Give a Fuck."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Oh, I love Super Furry Animals. What album is this on? I don't think I know this song.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Let me — I think it's Super Furry Animals. I'm gonna be shown that I'm wrong in a second. It'll be, like, Supertramp or something.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I really hope it's Supertramp. That would be something else.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Okay. It was a single. But the reason that it has, like, 200 uses of the word "fuck" —

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Oh, wow.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** — is because they use a Steely Dan sample.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Is it the "Show Biz Kids" —

*\[A clip of Super Furry Animals' "The Man Don't Give a Fuck" plays, built on a looped sample of "Show Biz Kids" (lyrics not transcribed).\]*

**OLIVER MORRIS:** So the whole song is, you know, "they don't give a fuck." That's just the song. That is the foundation of the song. The song is built around it.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** And they released this as a single?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** They released this as a single.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** That's more experimental than I would give them credit for, normally. I mean, I really like that band, but wow, I have to check this out. I don't think I know this one. I'm a bigger Rings Around the World fan, which came a little later, in '96, I think.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Huh. So I said it was 200 times; it was repeated more than fifty times. That's still a lot. And Steely Dan said, "Give us seven grand."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I was going to say, there had to have been some royalty. Seven grand, they made out cheap. That's actually pretty good.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I think Steely Dan really liked getting sampled.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I believe that. So it sounds like you could really get away with sampling them on the cheap side. Although maybe that was back in the day.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** They were eventually beaten by Insane Clown Posse's "Fuck the World." It has ninety-three instances of the word "fuck."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** You can't compete with the Insane Clown Posse. It's a posse.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Mm-hmm. Exactly.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Not much. Not much at all. Have you seen those Juggalos? I've seen those Juggalos. It doesn't matter how super or furry your animals are. The Juggalos — they've got hatchets.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yes, exactly. They \[unclear\] hatchets.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** They're insane clowns. So. Anyway.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Insane clowns, man. So yeah, anyway, that's the story. This is "Show Biz Kids."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** "Show Biz Kids" is a top five Steely Dan song for me.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Oh, wow.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** It's in the top five. I really love it. I could listen to it any day, over and over again. I love the refrain, with the underlying "Lost Wages" — "Go to Lost Wages" — below, and then the talk about the show biz kids on top. The contrast that runs through it. In some ways, I think it's the quintessential Steely Dan song, because it's paying homage, in a way, to the people that Steely Dan and also the rich people do not give a shit about, by saying, "Hey, there's real people out there who are struggling." Kind of like the one — kind of like —

**OLIVER MORRIS:** "Only a Fool Would Say That."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Exactly. Kind of showing that distance: you don't know what you're talking about. There's real people out there, and \[unclear\]. Here, it's just like, they're going to Las Vegas, getting ripped off, to live up to this dream that they could never —

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Live up to. "All the stars come out at night."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** "All the stars come out at night." And so it's like the world's not for you, right? And so it's cheekily kind of celebrating the rich, like spoiled brats, I think. And what's fascinating to me is that they're aligning themselves, in a way, with these people, with the line, "They got the Steely Dan T-shirt," right? So they're basically saying, "These are our fans. These are the people that like us, and they're these spoiled rich brats." But at least they're acknowledging there's a whole bunch of people that are struggling and sleeping — what's the line? — "sleeping with the shade on the light." So, like — and then you just get that nasty, lovely slide guitar running through the whole thing. And I could listen to that all day long. It's just money to me. It just sounds so good.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It opens the track as well, that \[unclear\].

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I could listen to it. I like it. And it's also little flourishes, like when they sing the "Steely Dan T-shirt" line, there's this little weird, almost musical nod to Can't Buy a Thrill. That's what it sort of sounds like to me. I can't even place why exactly, but there's just something to it that really thrills me.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I mean, I love this song. It's very good. It's a very good song. And it's an amazing way to start off side B, with this kind of mantra. It's a song that feels like mantras layered on top of each other.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yep. And I really like that about this song.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** No, no, no, there's no part — I feel bad, 'cause you were sort of waxing lyrical about it, and I kind of don't have the same love for it, because a lot of my love for Steely Dan comes later on in its canon.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Sure.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** But yeah, this was always a song that I really, really loved. It was a song I discovered, I think, when I went to see them live. They were sort of singing it along. And I think my favorite line is, "They got the Steely Dan T-shirt."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Of course. It's the best, right?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's the most self-referential they ever get.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yep. Other than that, I also love that it's not just that they got Steely Dan T-shirts, but their shapely bodies that are wearing the Steely Dan T-shirt. So it's maybe saying, with your shapely body in a Steely Dan \[T-shirt\], you're going to look good wearing it, too. That's as important. The one thing I'll say is, "And for the coup de grâce, they're outrageous." It's a little like — that's the coup de grâce? That's a little weird. Could you be more specific? What are they doing that's outrageous, Donald? Outrageous. It's like, okay. But "outrageous" rhymes with "Lost Wages," so: acceptable. You know?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** But yeah, "the show biz kids \[unclear\] —"

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** "— don't give a fuck about anybody else."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah. I love that about this song. It is unapologetically — despite the fact that it's sort of talking about itself, despite the fact that it is highlighting this dichotomy, Steely Dan are on the side of the pretty people now, you know what I mean? There's sort of an element of, "Yeah, while you were sleeping, we partied. Get fucked. We wear our shirts. Buy our merch. Whatever. We don't care anymore. We sold out."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** "Go to Lost Wages."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** "Go to Lost Wages."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Not my problem. What are you going to do?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** And that harmonica solo at the end, where it's like — oh, man. Harmonica is, like, blues and down-and-out, and all that oeuvre that comes with it. And the fact that you have this mournful harmonica solo at the end of this song, which is just like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're winning the money."

*\[The harmonica outro of "Show Biz Kids" plays.\]*

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Right, yeah. That, along with the slide guitar.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** That slide guitar, yeah.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** An upbeat slide guitar, but still kind of bluesy. Played by Rick Derringer, who's most famous for "Rock and Roll, Hoochie Koo," which is kind of fascinating. He also played with the Edgar Winter Group in the '70s, and I think he plays on "Frankenstein" and "Free Ride," which is sort of fascinating to me. That's his oeuvre in the '70s: it's Steely Dan and the Edgar Winter Group. But still, the man can play guitar. The slide guitar. And I love the marimba, too — the marimba playing in time with some of the lines. I'm a big sucker for that kind of thing.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** So I remember, when I was looking things up for this album, I ended up looking up the liner notes and finding the original liner notes online, at \[unclear\] or somewhere like that. And one of the things they have is the personnel on the album. So they have, for Countdown to Ecstasy: Denny Dias, Jeff "Skunk" Baxter, Walter Becker, Jim Hodder, Donald Fagen — the main five. And then "Specialists." Among them is Victor Feldman, who plays the vibes, marimba and percussion. Then you've also got Ray Brown, who plays the string bass on "Razor Boy," which you can hear just at the very end; it sort of reveals itself. And then Rick Derringer. And then it's also got the "General Practitioners," including "The Grunt," "The Pilots," "The Weekend Knob Job," and "Four Bits."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Who is that?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** "Four Bits" — that's a woman named Sue Clark \[spelling?\].

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Oh, okay.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** You kind of wonder which one of them was the dealer.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Right.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Probably "The Grunt," Warren Wallace \[spelling?\]. I'm sorry, Warren, if you hear this and you're like, "I wasn't the dealer. I did a job."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** "I did something. I did work."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** "I had to get tea for Gary Katz."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** "That was my job." Grunt fetching tea. Absolutely makes sense. Yeah.

# **\[00:40:18\] "My Old School"**

**OLIVER MORRIS:** But yeah, so that's "Lost Wages." We now get "My Old School," which is definitely about Bard College. And I think it's actually about the drug bust.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, that's what it seems like to me, reading the lyrics.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** And one of the things I really like about this song is just how it starts —

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** — which is with this lonely sort of piano. And you can just imagine Donald Fagen sitting in some practice room at Bard College, smacking out those chords. But then you have the whole ensemble come in — "da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da" — and you're like, "Oh, okay, yeah." This feels like school days. It has almost a Grease feeling to it.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** '50s kind of style. My only issue with the song — it's a beautiful song, I really like it — but again, there's this — and I have no idea if this is what really happened — but there's this woman who's the one who betrays them, right? To "Daddy G," right? G. Gordon Liddy. And maybe that's how it really happened, but it's always sort of — like you were saying before, there's this misogynistic kind of bent to a lot of the characters, and on this album in particular. It's like, why? Why does it have to be that way? It's the product of the time. It's the '70s. They are skeevy. You know, Skeevy Dan. Skeevy Dan. But after so much of it, you're just like, "Oh, man, why can't you just make Liddy out to be the loser?" Yeah. But it's a small note. It's a small note, especially compared to, like, "Your Gold Teeth."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Well, the interesting thing is, in Eminent Hipsters, there is one woman mentioned in the whole affair, and it's Walter Becker's girlfriend, who was busted alongside them. But she wasn't a member of Bard College.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Oh.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** So when the school lawyer broke everyone out of jail — paid the bail — he didn't pay the bail for Walter Becker's girlfriend. And it turned out that the person who ended up paying the bail for Walter Becker's girlfriend was Donald Fagen's dad.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** And their final act of defiance at Bard College is they didn't go up to get their diplomas, and instead sat in the bleachers.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Oh, so they went, but they didn't —

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah, they went, but they didn't collect their things.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Just sitting there, cross-eyed, shaking their heads, being like, "We'll show you." "I'm not going to get my diploma until California falls into the sea."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Exactly. "Guadalajara won't do for me."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** That's very them.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's such an act of teenage defiance.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. It's a little-shit move.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah. There's a great sax solo, as well.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yes. By someone. Yeah, who does the sax?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Well, the horns are Lanny Morgan, Bill Perkins, Ernie Watts, and Johnny Rotella.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, there's like four different people who play saxophone in this song.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Wow. Well, like horns and trumpet as well, I imagine.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, according to Wikipedia, there's like four.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Oh, is it four saxes?

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** It's four saxes. That can't be right. That can't be right.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** No, it could be wrong.

*\[A clip of "My Old School" plays (lyrics not transcribed).\]*

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I guess so. If you could have alto, tenor —

**OLIVER MORRIS:** You could have a soprano, an alto, a tenor, and a baritone.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah. Just one of each. Yeah.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's a wonderful little song, as well. One of the things I like about it is that it has this very laid-back vibe until the stabs of the solo. So it's all kind of leaning on its back foot a bit, and then it goes "bun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun," and the guitarist gets this double time to play against, which I think is really cool. And it feels a bit like a musical. There's just something musical about it.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, like a show-tune-y kind of —

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's a show tune, yeah.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** "This is the musical about how we all got busted."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** That is amusing. "And it was her fault." Except it wasn't.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Right. "We're going to blame her anyway."

# **\[00:46:08\] "Pearl of the Quarter"**

**OLIVER MORRIS:** "Pearl of the Quarter," right? For me, this was a gem that I'd never heard before.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Really?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah. I really love this song. And it might be because I was reading the lyrics while I was hearing it for the first time, but I just love it.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** It's a good one.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's a beautiful down-and-\[unclear\] song.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** It reminds me more of a song that would be on Can't Buy a Thrill. Maybe that's because it's about buying a thrill —

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It is specifically about buying a thrill. Yeah.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Seeking someone who's very good at the thrill, and paying for it. And some of the music, too, feels a little bit more like the previous album. Maybe it was a leftover or something. I don't know.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I love it. It's this very earnest love song towards someone who is clearly leading them on.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Right, right.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** The main character is obviously caught up in the wiles of this Pearl of the Quarter, and doesn't care. He's like, "Look, there will always be a safe place for you." And even as he's saying this, she's still kind of voulez-vous-ing him. And it's just a sweet little love song, in a kind of twisted little way.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** You have to be like, "You dope," right? About the main character. But also, at the same time, it's not mean-spirited. Yeah. Especially towards the Pearl. And really, not to the main character either. There's a sweetness to it. It's kind of a nice change of pace.

*\[A clip of "Pearl of the Quarter" plays (lyrics not transcribed).\]*

**OLIVER MORRIS:** The slide guitar in this as well is pitch-perfect.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Very good. Yes.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's amazing, having just a sort of on-duty slide guitarist, I guess.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Every band should have one. Yeah. Just a slide guitarist on command, like, "And now you will provide the slide guitar." There's something to slide guitar that I think is incredible-sounding. I love guitar solos in general, but slide guitar is just a whole other level to me. There's something to it that I can't get enough of.

# **\[00:49:20\] "King of the World"**

**OLIVER MORRIS:** And then we end with "King of the World." "King of the World" — it's one of their post-apocalyptic songs.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Counted down to ecstasy, and now the bomb drops.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** The world's over, and I'm all that's left. "Any man south of the Rio Grande is king of the world, as far as I know."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** "Any man left on the Rio Grande." Yep. Yeah. This is a really interesting album closer.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It reminds me a little bit, thematically, of "Fire in the Hole." I could see that. But I think putting it at the end of the album is a smarter move, because you kind of have this chirpy apocalypse song, I guess.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Right. Yeah, it makes sense that it's the end. It's the ultimate kind of ending.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Right. It's a big end.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** This guy is alone in the post-apocalyptic \[world\], contemplating suicide?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I think so. And just sort of chatting —

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** "And share my poison wine." Yeah. Right?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** "We'll drive through what used to be the south of LA," or whatever.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Right.

*\[A clip of "King of the World" plays (lyrics not transcribed).\]*

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Ham radio, asking if anyone's around. It's pretty sad, but again, typical Steely Dan: it sounds upbeat and chipper, right?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's got a synthesizer on it, as well.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** That's an early use of that for them. I know that they would come to embrace it in time, right? Especially with the album I mentioned earlier that I haven't listened to yet. Or maybe sooner. I'm never sure about synthesizer use.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Like, on an ethical level, I'm never sure about the use of synthesizer.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, is it ethical? Is it AI? Is it a form of AI? Should we question it? No, not like that. I'm just very bad at figuring out what's a normal keyboard and what's a synthesizer. Sometimes I can tell, and sometimes I'm not so sure.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** It's a great old —

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** "When you come around, no more pain, no regret. Watch the sun go down, smoke cobalt cigarettes."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Cobalt cigarettes. In the \[unclear\] James Bond: the cigarette that kills you instantly. Right. It's just made of cobalt.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** It's made of cobalt.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I always feel like whenever I buy a cigarillo, that's the feeling I have. It's just like, "Oh."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** That makes sense. Just inhaling death.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah, it's just death. Yeah. Finally.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Didn't they used to sell those cigarettes that were just called "Death"? They were just going right out with it, being like, "Hey, we're telling you what it is."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Right. Yes.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** God damn. It's something like that. It's like \[unclear\] or something.

# **\[00:53:24\] Final Thoughts and Robert Christgau's Review**

**OLIVER MORRIS:** So what did you make of this album? Is this your first time round with Countdown, or is this your —

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** \[Not\] my first time around. It's been a while since I listened to it, because after I first started listening, I didn't revisit it as a whole that often. I think I revisited key songs. It's not my favorite, I think I could say that. But it has that second side. It's such a good side B. And it's got "Bodhisattva," which is a very solid song on side A. So, you know.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** 75% of it's great.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I'd go as far as saying, like, eighty —

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Maybe eighty percent. Yeah. Eighty percent? Can I read one of my favorite reviews of the album? This is from Robert Christgau, the dean of American rock criticism. And he loved the album. He gave it an A, and he liked it better than Can't Buy a Thrill. I don't like it better than Can't Buy a Thrill, but I can see the argument —

**OLIVER MORRIS:** I feel if Can't Buy a Thrill cut two songs, then it would be significantly better than this album.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** This one does benefit from being leaner with the eight songs. So, this is my favorite line. His first line is: "With the replacement of lead singer David Palmer, who fit in like a cheerleader at a crap game, by composer-pianist-\[unclear\] Donald Fagen, who looks like he just got dressed up to go out to get the paper, they achieve a desperately agreeable studio slickness, perfect hooks that crackle and buzz when you listen hard. Same applies to the words, which are usually twisted. Not only does 'Bodhisattva' come on like a jazzed-up 'Rock Around the Clock,' it shines like China and sparkles like Japan. But somehow, I don't think Fagen really intends to hold hands with the enlightened one, \[unclear\] curiosity. A."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, I really enjoy that review.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** That's a really good review.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** "Like a cheerleader at a crap game."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** That is something. They did ditch David Palmer.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** They ditched Palmer, yeah. They're like, "Yeah, we'll just do it ourselves."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Gary Katz finally convinced him. It's like, "Come on."

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Right. "Just do it. Just do it, Donald. Just do it."

**OLIVER MORRIS:** And it's no surprise that very soon after this — I think Pretzel Logic is when they basically stop touring.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah. I think that's when the band breaks up.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Well, they don't really do it again until the '90s. Is that right?

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Yeah. Alive in America is their first time touring after that.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Yeah, that's huge. Yet another reason why I feel like they are the Beatles of the '70s, because, like Steely Dan, the Beatles stopped touring — for very different reasons: because they were so popular that they couldn't hear themselves play over the screaming crowds, and just didn't enjoy it. But still. Comparison, all the same.

# **\[00:56:39\] Sign-Off**

**OLIVER MORRIS:** And so, yeah, we'll see you next time, after the next period of time. You've been listening to Any Major Dudes. I'm Oliver Morris, a major dude.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** I'm Jeff Van Dreason, another major dude.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** And we'll see you next time. Goodbye.

**JEFF VAN DREASON:** Go ahead and count yourself down to ecstasy, in your own way. In your own private way.

**OLIVER MORRIS:** Absolutely.

*\[The Any Major Dude theme song plays out (lyrics not transcribed).\]*

*\[A voice says "EAR•WAX."\]*