We released a new episode of Drama Club last Wednesday. Along with our usual segments, we discussed writing for sound. Give it a listen if you please! Transcript below.

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EAR•WAX Magazine

Drama Club: “Sound Advice on Writing” (Writing for Sound)

Episode 3 transcript  ·  Runtime 35:12

Speakers

Contents

00:00:00   Opening and Icebreaker

00:03:50   What's New

00:09:02   Share Your Work

00:14:10   Salt Circle: Audio Fiction Pet Peeves

00:21:28   Theme: Sound Advice on Writing (Writing for Sound)

00:32:32   Shout-Outs and Sign-Off

[00:00:00]  Opening and Icebreaker

[A short opening sound collage (a sharp bang and applause), then iPod click-wheel clicks.]

[The Drama Club theme music begins and continues under the introduction.]

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Hey, welcome to Drama Club. I'm your host, Jeff Van Dreason. This is a production of EAR•WAX Magazine. Drama Club, where four audio fiction creators — or more, we'll never know. It could be up to six, seven, eight, nine, ten. We could stuff a whole room full of audio drama creators — and we talk about audio fiction stuff. I'm your host, Jeff Van Dreason, and let me introduce you to the other members of the club. We have Jade Scott, Tal Minear, and Oliver Morris. Welcome, everybody, to another session of Drama Club.

[The theme music fades out.]

JEFF VAN DREASON:  And my random question for you today is: when you were in high school, were you actually part of a drama club?

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Yes, I was. More than one.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Tell me about it.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  The high school that I went to, the drama program essentially started when I got there, so I was a part of my high school theater. And then also, across the river — because we were on one side of the river, and on the other side of the river there was a place called the Brattell [spelling?] Conservatory, which was a theater conservatory. During the summers, and then after school when I wasn't in a show at school, I would just walk across the bridge and go over there, and I'd be a part of that theater program, in assistant stage management. That's why I learned how to hand-sew and a variety of other things. So yes, I was deeply involved in theater as a child.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  That makes a lot of sense. Tal, what about you?

TAL MINEAR:  Yeah. A theater class, freshman year, and it was so hard for me. I was so shy in high school. And now I know the reason for that was undiagnosed generalized anxiety disorder, but I didn't know that at the time. So just the little mini-performances we had to do in theater class, in front of the other people in theater class — it was so much for me. Of course, now, an undisclosed amount of years later, not a problem. Public speaking's whatever now. But oh my gosh, no. Not back then.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I was the same. I was super anxious, and yet I got kind of pushed into doing drama, although it was sort of like a hack. I was the type of kid who was like, "I don't want to do that, but I kind of want to do that. I don't want to do that, but I kind of want to do that." And so I was pushed, but also kind of celebratorily pushed myself into being involved. And I was very shy, but it helped me meet other people, which was a good thing. Ollie, what about you?

OLIVER MORRIS:  The first drama club I was in, I played a jam tart in Alice in Wonderland. At eight years old — or like four years old. I played one of the jam tarts, during the Queen of Hearts "she had some tarts" kind of bit. So I've been in drama clubs since I was four years old. I remember the first time somebody tried to call me a drama nerd — a theater kid. They said, "You're a drama nerd." And I went, "What do you mean, I'm a drama nerd?" And he goes, "You, Ollie, you break out into song. Only drama nerds do that."

JEFF VAN DREASON:  As if that's a bad thing. Come on.

OLIVER MORRIS:  Well, exactly.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  That's the human experience.

OLIVER MORRIS:  And I mean, I was sitting next to him in drama club, so I don't know what his point was.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Who are you? If I'm a nerd, what are you?

[00:03:50]  What's New

[iPod click-wheel transition sound.]

JEFF VAN DREASON:  So today's theme is "Sound Advice on Writing," a.k.a. writing for sound. How do you do it? How important is it? What's your approach? Do you always write in sound cues? But first, we're gonna go to What's New: catch us up on anything and everything that's going on with you. What's new, everybody?

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  I don't know when this episode's coming out.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  [Unclear] Sunday afternoon.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Yeah, okay, look at us on the same page. But the Sunday after we're recording this, the official final episode of Small Victories is coming out. It's a crossover between Small Victories and Forgive Me. I think it's called "Small Forgive This," or it's either called "Victory Forgive Me" — there were two working titles. Anyway, it's one of my favorite episodes that I've written for the show, and I'm really excited. Working with Bob was really cool, and as a fan of Forgive Me, it's really cool being able to write for Father Ben. So it was a nice time.

OLIVER MORRIS:  "Small Forgivatories."

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Forgive Me crossovers have a special place in my heart, because they're very good. I think the Forgive Me universe lends itself well to so many different shows. And the "Forgive Boston" crossover that we did is near and dear to my heart: having Father Ben come to Boston, experience the Red Line, and proclaim his love of Mark Wahlberg, much to everyone's chagrin. It was a very, very important moment. Tal, Ollie — what's new with both of you?

TAL MINEAR:  I finished writing Side Questing Season 4. It took years. It's ten episodes, and I didn't write one of the episodes. It's done. It's done. I have a casting call out, running this month — probably not when this episode releases, but when we're recording it. I'm really excited to finally move into production. I enjoy writing Side Questing — I really slaughtered it [unclear] — but my true love is sound design, bringing the story to life, working with actors. So I'm excited that I finally get to transition to my favorite part of the process.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  That's fantastic. And I can't wait. By the time this comes out, it'll probably be out in the world, so you should go listen to Side Questing right now. It took Tal a long time to write it, and for everything that they do, they deserve your listenership. Ollie, I bet I know what you're gonna say.

OLIVER MORRIS:  There are so many new things. I'm gonna pick one at random. I was making sounds for the CEO of a company today — like, the fake CEO of a company. So this is for a group called Other Sun Press, which hopefully will have debuted by the time this comes out. They have a CEO who speaks exclusively in pleasing sine waves. And I've been working with the sort of under-manager of the big CEO, who figures out what those pleasing sine waves are, and we came up with a bunch of different sine waves today. So now we've got one for a happy mood, one for a sad mood, one for a surprise mood, one for an angry mood, one for a mysterious mood, and one for a sales-pitch mood.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I like it.

OLIVER MORRIS:  It was a weird session, but we got some crazy good work done.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  That is not what I thought you were going to say at all, but I like it.

OLIVER MORRIS:  What did you think I was going to say?

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Yeah — I thought you were gonna say what I was gonna say.

OLIVER MORRIS:  Which I'm just gonna leave to you.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Oh, okay. It's the sound race — I'm not getting it right — what's it called?

OLIVER MORRIS:  Sonic Silver Dash [title?].

JEFF VAN DREASON:  The Sonic Silver Dash, which is a weekend audio creation race where you get a prompt on Friday — today — and you have two days to make a two-minute thing. You cannot use any pre-recorded noise. Obviously you can't use AI. Fuck AI. But you have to produce a thing in a weekend and submit it by Sunday. And Ollie is taking part in it, as am I. And the prompt is "Go for broke." And I have a slight request for the Drama Club. Are you guys ready?

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Yes.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  So we're gonna do two episodes today, and in our second episode, would you be willing to help me record my script for this prompt and be my voice actors? And we're going to document it live and then show the process in all its messy glory.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Okay.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Yay. Thank you.

TAL MINEAR:  You're going for broke.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  It is. I ask so much of my Drama Club friends. You should have seen their faces in the meeting when I was like, "Hey, do you want to do this thing?" And they were like —

TAL MINEAR:  Oh, it's the excited faces. What are you talking about?

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Well, you're also a voice actor, so you have the acting ability as well. So, you know — sometimes I'm like, "Are you excited? Are you?" No, it's fine. It's self-deprecation. It's just how I deal.

[00:09:02]  Share Your Work

[iPod click-wheel transition sound.]

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Share your work and others' work. What have you been working on, other than Side Questing in Tal's case? And/or have you experienced a piece of work that you want to shout out? Anybody have anything?

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  I'm re-listening to Alpha 8 [title?]. Did you guys ever listen to Alpha 8 when it came out a couple of years ago?

JEFF VAN DREASON:  No, I have to add it to the list.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  You did the cover art? Look at that! The world's so small. But yeah, I really wish there was a season two, and as far as I'm aware, there is not. It ends kind of on a cliffhanger, so I was genuinely compelled, and so there I was, listening again in my own time. But you should listen to it. It's about this alien — well, alien figure — that comes to Earth, and yada yada, secret government, yada yada, family, yada yada. I don't want to spoil it, but those are the general vibes.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Lots of yadas going on.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Yeah, a lot of yadas.

TAL MINEAR:  [Unclear] concept.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  It's only about eight episodes, too. It's not super long. One season.

OLIVER MORRIS:  I just want "yada yada family, yada yada."

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Well, honestly, when you listen to it, you're gonna realize I really didn't cover the big parts, you know.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I got it. I think the big parts were in the yadas. That makes sense. Tal, what about you? I'm imagining TAFCON's taking up a good deal of your time.

TAL MINEAR:  Yeah. As we record this, TAFCON's in a week and two days, so I've just been doing a lot of prep for that. At this point, it's the stuff that had to wait till a couple of weeks before: goodie bags, things that take up lots of space in my little apartment. But while I do things — like while I pack 196 goodie bags with my partner — we've been putting on YouTube video essays. So that's what I've been doing: a lot of just silly YouTube videos. I say video essays; some of them are not. We just watched two YouTubers go to every Rainforest Cafe in the United States and Canada. And then, to follow that, we watched the same two YouTubers go to every Margaritaville.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  I know exactly what you're talking about, and those are fantastic videos.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Yes, I need to watch those.

TAL MINEAR:  [Unclear.]

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Can they go to Bugaboo Creeks next? Do you guys know Bugaboo Creek?

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  No, I am totally unfamiliar.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Bugaboo Creek might be a New England thing. It's so weird. It's like a kids' restaurant with a moose. It's not full kitsch like Chuck E. Cheese, but it's sort of the Margaritaville for kids.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Well, that makes it sound weirder, Jeff.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  You know, it's so weird. It's a regular restaurant with just a moose. It's kind of like a regular crappy restaurant with a moose that talks, I think. Maybe? I don't know. It's very strange, and I want them to go to every Bugaboo Creek. In New England, it probably wouldn't be that many, because I think most of them are closed. Ollie, what about you?

OLIVER MORRIS:  I've been listening to Wizard Seeking Wizard.

TAL MINEAR:  I did some sound design for it.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Oh, did you? Tal, you've got your fingers in every pie.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Tal is the, you know, Infinity Gauntlet of audio fiction, I swear to gosh.

TAL MINEAR:  I didn't do all the sound design, just a little bit in the back half. But I adore the show.

OLIVER MORRIS:  Yeah, I love it. I've been working with Max on various projects recently, who's another Bostonite, like you, Jeff —

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Oh, I know Max. Sure, sure, sure.

OLIVER MORRIS:  He's got the beard, and he's great. He's full of energy. But yeah, I've been listening to Wizard Seeking Wizard, and I've been really enjoying it. That's my recommendation. It's a little self-contained, isn't it? It's like 12 episodes or something, and then it's out, it's done, it's gone forever. So if you want to hear some wizard personals — you know, wizards seeking other wizards — that's the place to go.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I like it. Who doesn't need a wizard, if you're a wizard? I've been working on — I actually licked that episode I talked about last time. It took me a while, but I got the climax of Greater Boston done. But in true Greater Boston fashion, Alexander and I discussed that we would have two completely different takes on that episode, which makes sense, because if you remember, last time I told you that the whole episode is a lie. And so his version is going to be the truth. And I actually really love that we came up with that, and it works really well. So I'm excited about that.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I've also been listening to this really interesting diary-recording podcast called Jack, It's Me [title?]. It's about this woman, Holly, who's recording how she's dealing with her very strange town. The town has a sentient river running through it; there's all sorts of weird stuff. It's right up my alley, and I'm loving it, so I recommend Jack, It's Me. It's not terribly long, and you can rip through it pretty quickly. I think it's only one season right now, and hopefully there's more coming soon.

[00:14:10]  Salt Circle: Audio Fiction Pet Peeves

[iPod click-wheel transition sound.]

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Let's salt circle it up. What's an audio fiction trend that you're just completely tired of? What's something you want to see less or more of? No names or creators or specifics. Just vent. Vent.

OLIVER MORRIS:  I've got a — what's the word? — an uncharitable one. I've been hanging around young creators recently. And I love young creators, but I can't wait for them to become older creators.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Like me.

OLIVER MORRIS:  They're full of vim, vigour and energy, and good ideas, and ideas and ideas and ideas. And because they're young, every one of them is like, "New!" And you're like, "Ah, but have you considered — just have you considered the idea that maybe this is not an original idea?" I mean, I came from a philosophy background —

JEFF VAN DREASON:  But let's be clear: how many original ideas are there? Is it really the idea, or is it the execution? Right?

OLIVER MORRIS:  I came from a philosophy background, and one of the first things I learned was, "What a great idea — who said it first?" So you're like, "Oh, I've had this great idea about how God is a watchmaker." And it's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, the teleological argument. Come on, get with the program." And so there's just a sense of — you have to hold space. You can't just go, "Yeah, no, we've had that idea." Or, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, the world is terrible. Congratulations for figuring it out." And it's all young people. It's not their fault.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Now, I think the world's terrible too. Come on. Old people can be bitter as well.

OLIVER MORRIS:  Oh, yeah. We've got our own problems. We're bitter and sad and miserable.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  What are you saying "we" for? You're not old.

OLIVER MORRIS:  I'm 33. I'm an old crone now. I'm supposed to stand up with a cane.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  I mean, my goodness, you're on the precipice.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  What are you, Jesus Christ? That's not — that's not a mortal age anymore. Maybe back in the day your life expectancy was there, but now it's pretty —

OLIVER MORRIS:  Just like Jesus Christ: "I'm going to do nothing in my 20s, and in my 33rd year I'm going to pop off." That's the plan.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Like I said — and then come back.

OLIVER MORRIS:  Yeah. And then come back for the 40 days, and then I'll be done.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  That's quite the — I don't think he came back for 40 days. That's when he was away in the desert.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  No, that's the Resurrection. There was a whole thing. He was just hanging around and chilling with his friends.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  That's a long-ass time to be a zombie. Jesus. Oh — and I grew up Catholic. That's really shameful of me.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  [Unclear.]

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Yeah, yeah. We'll get to that later.

OLIVER MORRIS:  [Unclear] — that's my bugaboo.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  That's a good — it's a good Bugaboo Creek. Who else has a good bugaboo?

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  I don't remember what I said last time, so it might be the same thing, 'cause it's really a long-lasting thorn. I want less sci-fi. Or, at the very least, I want more things that aren't sci-fi. I love sci-fi. I've always loved sci-fi. I'm a nerd through and through. I understand that horror and sci-fi are currently the bread and butter of the audio fiction space, and that's well and good. I love it. Jeff, you have thoughts. I see it.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I do, but I'm going to let you finish. Sorry, I'm just excited. Go ahead.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  I just want either more different kinds of sci-fi — give me some more experimental stuff. What was it? The Great Chameleon War? Give me more stuff in that weird, experimental kind of sci-fi —

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Jeremy Haelstrom [spelling?] is so good.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Yeah. Or just give me a new genre. Where are the comedies? Where are the non-sci-fi, non-horror comedies? Where's my slapstick? Just give me something else.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  So what I was going to say is, I love this. You didn't say this before, but horror is in all media, including film. It's the only way you can express yourself creatively anymore. There's just IP everywhere, and then there's horror. And as much as I love the fact that Obsession and Backrooms are these small-budget, big-success movies that are taking down, like, The Mandalorian and Grogu — like, screw you, Disney — why can't we do more like that that's not necessarily horror? Why can't you have a small budget, give a director a shot, and have them tell a story? I get that horror is a guaranteed return on investment, because there are a lot of horror fans. People like horror. And so it's the same thing with audio fiction. I think people are like, "People will listen if it's horror or sci-fi," and they just go out and do that. And it's like, man —

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Try — just do other stuff. There's other stuff.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I love these genres, but I am 100% with you. 100%. I feel like we're doing subway takes now, but 100% agree. Anyway, Tal —

OLIVER MORRIS:  That's another thing about young people. They're like, "Ah, subway takes." No — back in the day, we used to call those takes.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Yeah. No subway takes. We're not in a subway. This isn't Greater Boston. Get out of here.

TAL MINEAR:  I'm so tired of pity marketing.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Nice, Tal.

TAL MINEAR:  I hate it. I know this is the most lukewarm take.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I like it. But go off.

TAL MINEAR:  I don't even see it that much in audio drama. Sometimes I'll see it for crowdfunding campaigns — like, "Woe is me, my show didn't get X number of downloads." But I also see this just scrolling on Instagram a lot lately, where it's like, "Oh, I released my record three months ago, and I don't have any listens." And that's it. That's the whole video. And I'm like, "Okay?"

JEFF VAN DREASON:  It's like, what am I to [unclear]?

TAL MINEAR:  Yeah. I'm like, save it for the group chat. I don't know. I don't have a lot of sympathy for pity marketing.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  No, I hate it. I hate it. I just hate it.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  It's lazy. It's not real marketing.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Yeah. I do think it's fair, because crowdfunding sucks. Crowdfunding is the most soul-sucking thing. You're just begging for money to make the thing you want to make, right? So I think it's fair game to be like, "Man, this sucks" — just to be real with people and be like, "Man, I don't want to be asking for money all the time." Especially when we would get messages being like, "Hey, the world's on fire. Maybe now is not the best time to ask for money." It's like, we know. You think I don't know what's going on? But I want to make the thing, because this is what it's all about. We've got to make art; otherwise, we're just going to go insane. So sometimes you just gotta be like, "Hey, I get it, but I gotta do this, otherwise I can't make this stuff." Nothing's free anymore. In fact, it's getting more expensive all the time, you know? Fine — but you gotta reel that in a bit. You can't pity it up for the sake of — for the sake of cash. Like, we're all struggling.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Plus, it kind of doesn't serve the art. It makes the art look worse, because you can't market it on its own merits. It doesn't give the best platform for what presumably is a good thing that you made.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Exactly. I agree, 100%. I would have never said that, and I'm glad you brought that up.

TAL MINEAR:  Because it bugs me all the time.

[00:21:28]  Theme: Sound Advice on Writing (Writing for Sound)

[A sting of the Drama Club theme music.]

JEFF VAN DREASON:  The theme of the episode is "Sound Advice on Writing," a.k.a. writing for sound. Do you do it? How important is it? What's your approach, if so? And do you always write in sound cues when you're writing?

TAL MINEAR:  I have so many opinions. I have so many.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Take it away. Begin. Take it away.

TAL MINEAR:  Writing for sound is so important in an audio medium, because the medium is the sound. So if you don't write for the sound, what are you writing for? And I think there's different ways to write for sound. I think the primary "write for sound" is: does this work without a visual? As a voice actor, I sometimes read scripts, and I can often tell when the writer has come from a screen or stage background, because I find a really high reliance on sound effect notes. [Unclear.] I'm not saying any names, but it's like, "The walls were triangular." And I was editing this a little bit — I wasn't sound designing this, thank God — but I was staring at that like, "What does that mean? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The way the sound bounces? What do you want me to do?"

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Sound design triangular walls? That's what you were asked to do?

OLIVER MORRIS:  Yes, Jeff. Come on.

TAL MINEAR:  I was just an actor.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  But that's still some high-concept stuff up there. Okay.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I'm gonna rebut this just a bit, though, because I think what you're talking about is 100% valid. However, it all depends on what you're doing. If you're gonna make your own show, don't worry so much about the sound design when you're writing it. Focus on the writing first. And the reason I say this — I only have my own experience to draw from — when we wrote Greater Boston season one, we kept it relatively simple. There's a lot of monologues, because we didn't think we'd have that many voice actors to actually record, right? In fact, most of it is Alexander, because it was his concept originally, and he was thinking, "Well, I don't know who we're going to get, and I can always rely on me, because I'm down to do this." That being said, there's lots of letters. There's so many letters. There's cover letters. There's letters to other people. There's phone messages that go on way longer than a phone message would allow you to record.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  And when it came time to produce it, we were like, "This is gonna be boring as fuck." We were really worried that people would get bored, right? And so the challenge then was to say, how do we make this interesting? And the way we approached it was like a writer. What I mean by that is we approached the concept all over again, as a fresh start. So you have the dialogue or the monologue, and then you have to redraft it as a sound designer and think about the sound cues. We didn't write any sound cues in, and so we were able to experiment with sound textures and noises in a way that felt very off the cuff and real, and just try stuff out. And keep in mind, we were learning how to sound design when we did this. So I add this with a caveat: you can start from scratch without necessarily thinking about sound until it's time to think about sound. But you do have to think about sound sooner or later. And don't write triangular walls. Don't write obscure sound cues that make no sense. Think about the actual thing that you're trying to make. Don't just lazily take your film script —

OLIVER MORRIS:  Oh, really don't take a film script.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  — just don't take your film script. It doesn't translate the way you think it's going to. It just doesn't. So, sorry, that's my take.

TAL MINEAR:  And I agree. You set it up like it was some big "Oh, we're gonna be on opposite sides." I'm 100% with you. I think you're allowed to write obscure sound notes if you're the sound designer. Sometimes when I'm writing something that I'm sound designing —

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Yes.

TAL MINEAR:  — I do make it future me's problem.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Yes. Yes. I've done that many times, 'cause —

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Because you don't sound design.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Yeah, I don't. It's none of my business. But me and Nathan, who's the director and sound designer for Small Victories, we work together closely in pre-production, production and post-production. So I'll write in a cue — for instance, in the finale episode, there's a sound cue where it's like, "Marisol punches her father's arm. They're not reconciled, but it's closer." That's the sound cue. And when he was reading it, he was like, "What am I supposed to do with that?" And he figured it out.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  That's it. Yeah.

OLIVER MORRIS:  See, this is my take: I think that I, as a sound designer, kind of love obscure cues. And as a writer, I give obscure cues all the time. When I finished writing God Under Siege [title?], I showed it to Conrad, who's a close collaborator of mine, and he just said, "You know, I don't think I get it." And then he heard the final piece, and he said, "Ollie, you left out all the [unclear]. You left out all the sounds?" And I'm like, "Yeah, 'cause I knew what they were, and I was gonna put them in later." And he's like, "Yeah, but how am I, a reader, supposed to know what it's gonna sound like if you don't tell me what it sounds like?" And I'm like, "Oh, 'cause we'll figure it out later." And I am very lucky to have my partner in crime, Jude, who revels in obscure notes, and he's like, "Right, yeah, no, got it." I think I've got one in a script that we're doing at the moment, which is like, "Vampire carnage. Lots of death." And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it, I got it. Say no more."

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  [Unclear] — it's pretty descriptive.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  My favorite thing to do now is actually a dialogue-based thing. I'll write a term or word that's kind of confusing to hear, and then in parentheses I'll just say, like, "Improvise mispronunciation over and over again." To which the actors are probably like, "Fuck you." You just want me to naturally make this sound real, as if I'm screwing it up. But yeah, it's fun. And actors love a challenge, too. Problem for future actors, right?

OLIVER MORRIS:  I also love it when sound designers look at the cue you've written and say, "Nah, I'm gonna do something else." There's a real joy in that.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Yeah, absolutely. And this is what I mean by it's a way to redraft a script. You have agency, too. You're the designer, right? Just chuck it out and try something. And the worst case is whoever's the creator is going to be like, "No, that's not really what I wanted." But if they're open-minded, they're gonna be like, "That's great. Yeah, go for it." Or maybe it's not.

OLIVER MORRIS:  It depends. Again, this vampire thing I'm working on: the dude turned a scene which, in my head, was a Blade-style culling of a whole bunch of vampires into a vampire mini-boss. And it sounds so much better when it's just two dudes fighting. It's like, "Oh, yeah."

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Unless it's film, I think a big fight scene is really hard to pull off, right? Like Blade — the opening of Blade.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  It would have to really be — the designer would really have to understand what's happening in the space to be able to clearly articulate it. So I think it can be done. I just think that it takes a lot more time than is perhaps justified in most scenes.

OLIVER MORRIS:  I think that's fair. Yes. Sorry, Tal.

TAL MINEAR:  I love how Kill Jam [title?] does this, because in-universe, their fights have wrestling commentators.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  That's amazing.

TAL MINEAR:  So you get away with a lot, because you have people being like, "Oh, this person just did this. Wow." And I love that. I think it's so clever.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  That's incredible.

OLIVER MORRIS:  And I have it on the other side of this divide, which is that I did once receive a note in the sound designer block that just said, "A goddamn wrestling match." With nothing.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  [Unclear.]

OLIVER MORRIS:  Well, I ended up sitting with the writer and going, "No, you're gonna have to tell me what happens, beat by beat, in this wrestling match, because I don't know enough about wrestling to be able to book a match." [Unclear.]

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Is that the Tales of the Cog episode I'm in?

OLIVER MORRIS:  That is the Tales of the Cog episode you're in. Oh, you did such a good job.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Oh, yeah. I knew. I knew. Yes. Awesome. Well, I think that was a good discussion, and we're about at time. Does anybody else have any last thoughts about writing for sound?

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  That when you write for sound, don't just think about sound effects, but think about how it fits as a whole story concept. For example, in Small Victories Season 3, a lot of the show takes place both before and after the official credit sequence. So if you're really going to do something wacky with the format and the sound, just really go for it, and think about it more — not holistically, but from a more wide standpoint. God, that's an awful phrase. But think about the actual structure itself. Get really metatextual in there. Really get funky with how audio fiction is formatted, and look at it that way. Do something weird.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Think carefully about the medium that you're in, right? Don't do it just to do it. I feel like a lot of shows are just like, "I'm gonna do a podcast because I can." And it's like, yeah, but should you? Think about what you're actually doing and how you can use it to your advantage.

OLIVER MORRIS:  Oh, 100%.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Make something unadaptable. Make something so vast in its medium that it wouldn't fit someplace else.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Yeah. That's good advice. That's a good way to put it. You took what I was saying and classed it up, made it so much better.

OLIVER MORRIS:  Just adapt your novel. Unless it's a really good novel.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I mean, back even —

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Like Lux Radio Theatre back in the '40s. They would do adaptations of big blockbusters, so they had episodes of Casablanca and stuff like that. So it can be done. But it's a worse version of the movie, so keep that in mind.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Yep. Yeah. The Star Wars audio drama — anybody ever listened to that?

OLIVER MORRIS:  Well, you know, I have a soft spot for that.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I think it's fuck wild. There's this extended torture scene where Darth Vader's torturing Leia, and it's just like, what's going on here? It's like, "Hey, man, didn't anybody tell you that's your daughter? You should cut down on the sexual chemistry in your torture scene."

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  That's not George Lucas's vision, Jeff. That's not what George wants for the people.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  [George] did not want that. I agree.

[00:32:32]  Shout-Outs and Sign-Off

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Good discussion, all. And we're going to wrap up now with shout-outs. Anybody got any shout-outs before you go? And also tell people where to find you on the socials.

TAL MINEAR:  Okay. Shout-out to Hannah Wright, who makes In Between. I also work with her on re: Dracula stuff.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Hannah's also an EAR•WAX contributor, and I also want to shout out Hannah Wright. So yes, thank you.

TAL MINEAR:  Hannah's just so great. I love In Between. It's such a fun show. She's so lovely to work with. That's my shout-out.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  Good shout-out.

OLIVER MORRIS:  My shout-out is to Max Kreisky, because that guy's a solid G. I love him so much.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  My shout-out would be to Madeline Dorda [spelling?], who puts on a really good show. Go listen to it: Meteor City. That's what it's called. You might want to know the title.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  I know Meteor City. That is a good show. My shout-out is to my Drama Club friends, because they've gone with me on this adventure so far. I really appreciate you all. And also, I'm going to make you act now in our next episode. You had no warning. I just sprung it on you, and you're good sports about it. So thank you very much. I appreciate you greatly. And that's it for Drama Club today. Thank you for tuning in. Please tune in next time, where we finally reveal the reasoning behind Tal Minear's social media handle.

[The Drama Club theme music begins under the sign-off.]

TAL MINEAR:  Yeah, if you want to find out what Starplanes [spelling?] means — which is, incidentally, where you can find me on Bluesky and Tumblr — tune in next time.

JEFF VAN DREASON:  We will get to that, and you'll hear a mess of a production where we record a weird thing that I wrote for a 48-hour audio project. Bye.

JADE MADISON SCOTT:  Bye.

OLIVER MORRIS:  And… scene.

[The theme music plays out.]

[A closing sound collage (a sharp bang and applause).]